tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post8974314429945848618..comments2023-09-28T12:28:57.598+03:00Comments on Grahnlaw: Europe Day: Schuman declarationRalf Grahn http://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-76362336884441970072008-05-13T00:22:00.000+03:002008-05-13T00:22:00.000+03:00... the probability that the EU might well exist l...<I> ... the probability that the EU might well exist long after me</I><BR/><BR/>I do not think so. I believe that it contains the seeds of its own destruction, a destruction that, sadly, will be very painful for all. <BR/><BR/>I seem to have repeated previous arguments- I apologise for that. <BR/><BR/><I>But, with regard to international financial institutions (and other organisations), I would see it as beneficial if the EU, more than today, would speak with one voice in the larger world.</I><BR/><BR/>I would agree, if I trusted the Brussels government, but my trust has been completely destroyed. I now see that as the thin end of the wedge. Coordinated financial policy today, something else tomorrow - precident set - coordinated Foreign and security policy next. In that area my trust in the EU is below zero, if that were possible. Too many vested interests are pulling the strings.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-89498220002756420382008-05-12T20:05:00.000+03:002008-05-12T20:05:00.000+03:00Alfred the Ordinary, It is good of you to put so m...Alfred the Ordinary, <BR/><BR/>It is good of you to put so much effort into explaining your views. I appreciate your civilised way to discuss these matters, too.<BR/><BR/>Although I do not necessarily share your conclusions, I acknowledge that there is need for EU reform, and your arguments give me cause to think about some fundamental questions.<BR/><BR/>One of the decisive factors, for me, to work on the assumption that reform is possible, is the probability that the EU might well exist long after me. <BR/><BR/>If I remeber correctly, we have both expressed broadly similar views on the EU's agricultural and fisheries policies, both internally and in relation to the third world.<BR/><BR/>You are right about certain defensive postures, which come all too easily. Whistleblowers have been hounded and MEPs' expenditure mismanaged,to name but a few examples. <BR/><BR/>But, with regard to international financial institutions (and other organisations), I would see it as beneficial if the EU, more than today, would speak with one voice in the larger world. But I suppose that the UN Security Council is even harder to reform than the EU...Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-73145714804178739812008-05-12T19:04:00.000+03:002008-05-12T19:04:00.000+03:00If you dedicated your efforts to improving EU leve...<I>If you dedicated your efforts to improving EU level democracy and transparency, you would have less to fear when your aim started to become a reality.</I><BR/><BR/>I have watched others, over decades, far far more able than I, try to improve EU level democracy and transparency. They have met with, at times, fierce opposition and even sacking. The EU Elite does not take kindly to criticism. Just look at the way it handled EU parliament protests about the handling of the referendum issue and the way MEP corruption is being investigated (not). <BR/><BR/>I have watched others try to reform the CAP and the common fisheries policy, with almost zero success. <BR/><BR/>I have come to the conclusion that the EU organisation is beyond reform, but worse, it actively resists reform. You might be content with the type of government that says one thing but does the opposite. It is alien to many of us in the UK. Our government is sliding towards this type of government but as yet, we expect it to do what it says, and generally it does. <BR/><BR/><I>In my view, the important but difficult question is to find the right level of governance for different matters. </I><BR/><BR/>Yes, but does this really mean supra-national government for some things? I draw the line at that, but I guess you feel that is necessary to achieve things on a global scale.<BR/> <BR/>You concentrate on the theory of the EU, and provide excellent information. I go from one level of disbelief to the next as I concentrate on the EU in practice, which is so very different from the theory. <BR/><BR/>Just look at its maneuvering over a single seat in international financial bodies. We are told that there are loads of safeguards in the Lisbon treaty, but in practice, when the EU Elite want something to happen, they make sure that it does. Even the BBC's Mark Mardell, not known for his EU scepticism, commented on his blog:<BR/><BR/><B>One [prescription] is that economic ministers should think more about their responsibilities to the bloc as a whole, and less of their national interest. In a phrase almost designed to give a delicious shiver to eurosceptics, the commission promises to <I>"better exploit all instruments provided by the Lisbon treaty to promote broader economic policy coordination."</I> One idea is to exclude extraneous chatter from mere nation states at the world's top tables. The commission will argue for a single seat in international financial bodies. I can't get any clarity but I presume they mean the IMF, the OECD, the World Bank and perhaps the G8. <I>"At the moment we take up too many seats, too much space,"</I> says one official.</B><BR/><BR/>Look at the EU’s rhetoric, its theory about helping poverty in Africa, and then look at what it actually does in practice. It destroys farmers through food dumping. It destroys the livelihoods of West African fishermen, who then become economic migrants to the EU. (I’ve commented in more depth at alfredtheordinary.vox.com)<BR/><BR/>And this organisation is reformable? I take my hat off to you for your power of hope. <BR/><BR/>You make interesting comments about the UK. For all its faults, that union works, and most citizens feel part of that union. If we split into the states of England, Scotland and Wales, I believe that it will be to the detriment of all three, but we seem to be going down that path.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-52259356022097258432008-05-12T07:10:00.000+03:002008-05-12T07:10:00.000+03:00Alfred the Ordinary, If you dedicated your efforts...Alfred the Ordinary, <BR/><BR/>If you dedicated your efforts to improving EU level democracy and transparency, you would have less to fear when your aim started to become a reality.<BR/><BR/>Even in the best circumstances, progress can only be gradual. But look at the untidy, even unsavoury early days of British parliamentary democracy, in spite of its crucial role as a model around the world, even today. <BR/><BR/>If, on the other hand, you want to find the right level of closeness, even for global and European problems, where do you stop?<BR/><BR/>Why should English, Welsh and Scottish viewpoints be crammed together in Westminster?<BR/><BR/>Why not each borough - rotten or not - or for that matter every individual, on its own?<BR/><BR/>In my view, the important but difficult question is to find the right level of governance for different matters. <BR/><BR/>If there are more levels than one (as there are, already), there will always be tensions, but my general view is that the European Union is too weak in the fundamental questions of security and prosperity in a globalising world, but too intrusive in details best left to other levels of governance or (often wisely) to citizens themselves.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-34018085443099614452008-05-12T00:22:00.000+03:002008-05-12T00:22:00.000+03:00In this context, an obdurate defence of intergover...<I>In this context, an obdurate defence of intergovernmental practices and national scrutiny of European level legislation and action is unhelpful.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, unhelpful to those wishing to destroy the nation states. I do understand your position, and whilst I'm uncomfortable being compared to a Nazi doctrine, I am also able to look at both recent and distant history. In the UK we have enough trouble getting an agreed approach combining english, scottish and welsh viewpoints. The differences in culture between the UK and France, Germany and some others is a very much larger chasm to cross, far too large if history is any guide. Let us learn to work together as we have done through international agreements and in so doing build trust and relationships. Enforced rules alienate and do not lead to increased trust but the opposite as both history and time will tell. <BR/><BR/><I>A citizen is a participatory member of a political community. </I> Grolier<BR/><BR/>I suppose your idea of participation of a citizen in the E.U. and my idea are rather different. I see a citizen as one who holds its government in fear. I see an E.U. that is slowly establishing regulations that will hold its citizens in fear.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-48933702735677809622008-05-11T08:28:00.000+03:002008-05-11T08:28:00.000+03:00Alfred the Ordinary, I think that the democratic d...Alfred the Ordinary, <BR/><BR/>I think that the democratic deficit of the European Union is reformable, once the citizens of the EU and the member states realise that EU level matters require EU level democracy and scrutiny. <BR/><BR/>In this context, an obdurate defence of intergovernmental practices and national scrutiny of European level legislation and action is unhelpful. <BR/><BR/>Naturally, people are more attached to matters near to their daily lives, starting with themselves and their family. <BR/><BR/>But for me citizenship of the EU is the essence of 'demos', all other definitions bearing a disturbing resemblance to "Blut und Boden" philosophies. <BR/><BR/>In other words, towards giving EU citizens full rights through their elected parliament, according to the principles of representative democracy, in all matters within the EU's remit. <BR/><BR/>The member states will continue to be the most important distributors of education, social services, health care and a plethora of other important public goods.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-61990189399137558872008-05-11T01:02:00.000+03:002008-05-11T01:02:00.000+03:00I find intergovernmental cooperation has many shor...I find intergovernmental cooperation has many shortcomings but that brings us to the Monnet belief that intergovernmental organisations will never solve the problems of the world. Only supranational government can overcome global problems, if they have power over nations. I disagree with that view but understand that many believe that only a powerful, supranational UN or EU can solve world problems. Remove nation states and you remove the support their inhabitants had to the culture and identity of that nation state. Will they fight to the death for a supranational government, in the way they have for a nation, a supranational government for which they feel no affiliation and from which they are feeling increasingly alienated? I think not. I'm sure we will not agree on this.<BR/><BR/>My real concern, as I expressed, is the democratic deficit in the EU. It is at its very core and I don't believe is reformable. That 13 or 14 national parliaments have voted in favour, also worries me as they vote in favour, while refusing their electorate referenda that they know they will loose. That is the 'we know best' mentality, that transference of sovereignty to this very undemocratic EU Elite is somehow safe. That the ex-national parliaments are democratic does not make the EU elite democratic, if that is your point.<BR/><BR/>Yes, NATO has problems and not just with Macedonia, but is a one european army, with a very mixed cultural identity, really a better solution?Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-41123034334634504942008-05-10T08:06:00.000+03:002008-05-10T08:06:00.000+03:00Alfred the Ordinary, Thank you for your opinion. I...Alfred the Ordinary, <BR/><BR/>Thank you for your opinion. <BR/><BR/>I find your belief in intergovernmental cooperation surprising. You mention NATO (an important organisation, in my view, too), but how credible is an alliance which is unable to accept a new member because one existing member state thinks that it has the wrong name (Macedonia)? <BR/><BR/>Hardly a credible example of effective action, is it?<BR/><BR/>Yes, the European Union is still in its infancy with regard to democratic governance, but the answer is, in my humble opinion, to reform the EU, not to dismantle it. <BR/><BR/>Have you studied the recorded ratification votes in the 13 or 14 national parliaments until today? <BR/><BR/>For me, national parlamentarians are hardly part of a ruling EU elite, although they contribute to the functioning of the Union.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-19122273117727436742008-05-09T19:00:00.000+03:002008-05-09T19:00:00.000+03:00The European Union is an ongoing effort, but despi...<I>The European Union is an ongoing effort, but despite its shortcomings it offers 500 million citizens and 27 member states the best hope for strengthened security and enhanced prosperity in an unpredictably globalising world.</I><BR/><BR/>You know that I disagree very very strongly with this statement. The best hope for strengthened security is nations working together for collective security through intergovernmental organisations like NATO, that has prevented war in Europe for more than 50 years; where the people feel involved and where they have real power through the ballot box. <BR/><BR/>As people begin to feel more and more disenfranchised by the ruling elite of the EU about whom they can do nothing - they cannot be voted out, so I predict we will see increasing resentment at the interference in every aspect of their everyday lives. These are the type of resentments that eventually lead to civil strife and civil war. Just look elsewhere around the world where artificial borders have been forced upon groups of people who do not share a cultural identity and where they had no power at the voting box to remove the ruling elite. We are setting up the very <B>worst</B>, not <I>"the best best hope for strengthened security and enhanced prosperity"</I> for the peoples of Europe.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.com