tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post9125222604350630774..comments2023-09-28T12:28:57.598+03:00Comments on Grahnlaw: European Union: What to do with Britain?Ralf Grahn http://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-55632005437185958762009-06-08T14:09:15.450+03:002009-06-08T14:09:15.450+03:00Saving the nation state? That's a new one on m...Saving the nation state? That's a new one on me, one with which I cannot agree. I do not believe that there can be any such thing as pooling sovereignty either. I believe that we have tried to be constructive but that approach has never worked so it is time to leave. Judging by the votes, the British electorate is beginning to wake up to that fact.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-25055161825012163292009-06-08T07:26:58.475+03:002009-06-08T07:26:58.475+03:00Alfred the Ordinary,
Renowned scholars have desc...Alfred the Ordinary, <br /><br />Renowned scholars have described European integration (the EEC) as a project to save the nation state, by pooling sovereignty.<br /><br />On the other hand, beginning with the Schuman declaration (1950), the European Coal and Steel Community was presented as the first step in the federation of Europe. <br /><br />'Ever closer union' has been and is the official aim, for all to see. <br /><br />But if the people of the United Kingdom do not want to participate in a constructive manner, it is probably better for all if the UK withdraws. <br /><br />In or out is the main question; the Treaty of Lisbon is secondary, but seen as an important step by the parliaments and governments of the (other) EU member states.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-74284581448914182892009-06-08T03:26:49.769+03:002009-06-08T03:26:49.769+03:00Grahn there is a huge difference. If one enters a ...Grahn there is a huge difference. If one enters a marriage but was told it was just some loose friendship pact, and was definitely NOT a marriage, then one has been grossly deceived. The mistake, of course, was signing the legal documents, but for most of us, that was done by our representatives, who misrepresented the situation to us. In this case, the deceived partner has a choice. Accept the situation of ever closer union, or get a divorce.<br /><br /><b>The Great Lie</b><br /><br />Prime Minister Heath <i>"There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe, we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty... These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified...". "</i><br /><br />The aggrieved party might want an <i>"amicable instead of acrimonious and messy"</i> split, but, sadly, I feel it is bound to be the latter.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-30219164901174768992009-06-08T01:06:57.072+03:002009-06-08T01:06:57.072+03:00Alfred the Ordinary,
Britain joined an evolving ...Alfred the Ordinary, <br /><br />Britain joined an evolving project for 'ever closer union', as did every other member state, before and after. <br /><br />But in some cases a divorce can be a better solution than hanging together, especially if one partner is intent on making the other one's life hell. <br /><br />If so, it is usually better if the split is amicable instead of acrimonious and messy.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-65444667659701438972009-06-07T22:45:16.672+03:002009-06-07T22:45:16.672+03:00If you join a venture - be it a football club, it ...If you<i> join a venture - be it a football club,</i> it is normally on the understanding that you know what you are joining. We were told that we were joining a trading union which would not affect our sovereignty. We find ourselves all but taken over by a political supra-national government, with a substantially different rule of law (Civil law) from our centuries old Common Law, that protected the individual. <br /><br />We have been severely harmed already by the changes. I have been involved in fishing, farming and small business and have seen the way the EU regulations have decimated the industries and destroyed so many families and individuals all for the sake of ever greater integration.<br /><br />We might harm others by leaving, but we can help by being what we have always been, ready and willing to join with European nations through Intergovernmental agreements - agreements between sovereign nations to aid trade, defence and more. <br /><br />An independent Britain has been a great help to Europe and the past, and can be again. A Britain subjugated and brought to its knees by the EU is no help to anyone least of all its citizens.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-71841796593105246512009-06-07T05:09:32.836+03:002009-06-07T05:09:32.836+03:00Alfred the Ordinary,
Well, when you join a ventu...Alfred the Ordinary, <br /><br />Well, when you join a venture - be it a football club, a business or something else - the natural feeling is that you want it to develop; if not, then you part. <br /><br />The Lisbon Treaty is over-rated among proponents and opponents. In my view, it is means incremental change, much of it between the EU institutions (like the European Parliament getting more of a say). <br /><br />If enough British people feel that they do not want to be part of the evolving European Union, they are the ones to make the decision, but why cause the other countries unnecessary harm?Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-18001511776972779312009-06-06T18:20:16.364+03:002009-06-06T18:20:16.364+03:00Thanks. This is a good summary of the faulty logic...Thanks. This is a good summary of the faulty logic behind David Cameron's policy. I think your conclusion that it is, in reality, and IN or OUT decision is correct. Let the real discussion start.Alfred the Ordinaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02806612975119244680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-19018013530282752872009-06-05T07:12:42.745+03:002009-06-05T07:12:42.745+03:00Anonymous,
Britain needs 13 other member states ...Anonymous, <br /><br />Britain needs 13 other member states to call an intergovernmental conference and 27 to conclude a deal. <br /><br />How much sympathy and understanding do you think that the Conservatives are amassing around Europe, given the choices they have made or announced? <br /><br />The Lisbon Treaty is key to at least major enlargement, so there is one complication for British policy, even without the rise of populists with a visceral hatred towards Turkey.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-42528567337090239582009-06-05T00:12:16.065+03:002009-06-05T00:12:16.065+03:00What can you do with Britain? Are there many real ...What can you do with Britain? Are there many real options? Surely there's nothing in the Lisbon Treaty to cover "the problem"?<br /><br />I'm not sure that the UK's budget contributions are the key issue in the EU (and it looks like other countries are likely to be asking for a better deal as well). I see Geert Wilders seems to have won 15% in the Netherlands. The Turkey issue is a big one. Eastern Europe has some very serious economic difficulties. Then there are the issues of food and energy security. Quite a large in-tray for the new MEPs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-42825485701157331722009-06-03T21:15:25.514+03:002009-06-03T21:15:25.514+03:00Freeborn John,
As I said, the EU would have to c...Freeborn John, <br /><br />As I said, the EU would have to count its losses and get on with life. <br /><br />The UK is a big issue, relatively speaking. It is the third in population size, although only fourth as a gross contributor to the EU budget. <br /><br />As a net contributor per capita it ranks after Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Germany and Belgium, but more than Austria, France, Italy, Finland and Cyprus.<br /><br />The long term budget (possibly 5 years, from 2014) is a highly intergovernmental affair, so the member states' interests are more central to the process than the 'Brussels institutions'. <br /><br />If Britain exits the EU, it would hardly happen overnight, because the relations are complex, including representation and budgetary issues. <br /><br />It is possible that the UK would want access to the internal market. The countries of the European Economic Area contribute to the EU budget for this privilege. <br /><br />Generally, I am not much in favour of 'my way or the highway' politics, but the history of UK membership has been less than constructive and the Conservative pledges promise even more difficulties in the future. <br /><br />How long would you as Manchester United coach look at one player who consistently plays for the opposing team? <br /><br />Yes, the European Union can work only through shared values, goals and team play.Ralf Grahn https://www.blogger.com/profile/02156293782163802007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6406430766424642773.post-363226854318343592009-06-03T20:23:32.019+03:002009-06-03T20:23:32.019+03:00But if you rush to complete a 7-year budget and th...But if you rush to complete a 7-year budget and then tell one of the main budget contributors to leave before that spending period even begins, then who will fill the massive hole in that budget?<br /><br />The self-interest of the Brussels institutions is in their own survival. The self-interest of the majority of member states that benefit from British contributions to the budget is on the UK remaining a member. And the self-interest of other major contributors such as Germany is in not having to make up the budget shortfall that would result from your 'my way or the highway' dictat.Freeborn Johnhttp://no.eu.comnoreply@blogger.com