One of the sad things about the British EU debate is how self-centred it is.
Let us take the Treaty of Lisbon. It has been agreed unanimously between 27 governments and approved by 26 national parliaments. It is the expression of what our governments and parliaments want the European Union to be. With Ireland pending, the reform treaty is fully legitimate.
If a new government changes tack in a country, which has already formally ratified the Lisbon Treaty, I expect the government to act in a responsible manner.
Wrecking the Lisbon Treaty, against the will of the other EU member states, is callous and abrasive in the extreme.
If the British want to change course, they should act in the manner least destructive to their European partners and to themselves.
The fundamental question is if Britain wants to be a member of the European Union, or if it wants to withdraw. If that requires a referendum, so be it. The question is simple: In or out?
The UK government of the day would then have a clear mandate either way, without wreaking havoc among the countries which see European integration as a constructive team effort.
The Conservative Party has tabled the wrong Referendum Bill.
Ralf Grahn
Thursday, 4 June 2009
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Hi, Ralf,
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't say that the Lisbon treaty is completely legitimate if it is only ratified by parliaments.
Parliaments do confer legitimacy, you are right - and Lisbon is largely a consolidation of existing intergovernmental treaties...
But these are still constitutional changes we're talking about. Surely it's right to have referenda when a change is made at the constitutional level?
I've studied the Lisbon treaty, and I support the changes it suggests. But the EU needs to decide what it is - is it intergovernmental or is it supranational? If it's supranational, then it should hold referenda during constitutional changes.
We may need further reforms after Lisbon. And they will no doubt go further than Lisbon. We're going to have to start having referendums at some point, surely?
The Conservative Party DO NOT want to leave the EU; you might as well put that out of your head. They have far more influence in than out and, despite what you might think, they aren't fools. Cameron is likely to have a healthy party majority; with no coalition needed.
ReplyDeleteThey must be after something - I suspect it is a broader, shallower EU - and with no superstate to rival America.
I know of no way to force the UK to have an "in or out" referendum, very tempting though it is to imagine. All we can do is see how things play out; a 2-speed EU may be necessary, alas.
Ralf wrote: 'It is the expression of what our governments and parliaments want the European Union to be.'
ReplyDeleteBut patently NOT what the people of Britain (and Ireland) want the EU to be. (And recent events here in Britain illustrate perfectly the huge divide between People and Parliament).
Either you accept that it is the PEOPLE who should have the final say on who governs them and how they are governed, and leave it at that .. or you admit to supporting an EU which is fundamentally lacking in democracy.
And having admitted that, then perhaps you will explain why this bullying, anti-democratic structure should continue to exist?
Josef,
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ.
The Lisbon Treaty is an international treaty, leaving the member states holding the reins.
The importance of the Lisbon Treaty has been overdramatised. But the real point is that the Conservatives' proposal to wreck the Lisbon Treaty is highly destructive for the EU as a whole.
Its changes are mainly administrative and internal; incremental change. In addition, Britain has opted out of most of the important emerging areas, anyway.
I see two situations where a referendum can be the right solution:
1) A national referendum, when a country decides on joining the EU, knowing that it is an evolving project.
2) An EU-wide referendum if and when there is a constituent treaty, which would give the union a real Constitution, including effective powers (foreign affairs), democratic governance and amendment procedure for future changes.
This qualitative leap would legitimise a pan-European referendum; but the member states where it failed, would remain on the outside of the new union.
Josef,
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ.
The Lisbon Treaty is an international treaty, leaving the member states holding the reins.
The importance of the Lisbon Treaty has been overdramatised. But the real point is that the Conservatives' proposal to wreck the Lisbon Treaty is highly destructive for the EU as a whole.
Its changes are mainly administrative and internal; incremental change. In addition, Britain has opted out of most of the important emerging areas, anyway.
I see two situations where a referendum can be the right solution:
1) A national referendum, when a country decides on joining the EU, knowing that it is an evolving project.
2) An EU-wide referendum if and when there is a constituent treaty, which would give the union a real Constitution, including effective powers (foreign affairs), democratic governance and amendment procedure for future changes.
This qualitative leap would legitimise a pan-European referendum; but the member states where it failed, would remain on the outside of the new union.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI am just pointing out that the Conservative Party is acting in an immoral and destructive fashion, which is bound to affect the feelings and behaviour of other EU member states.
They want to be on the team, in order to play against it.
I have wanted to show that there is a less harmful way to deal with Britain's EU trauma.
If the Conservatives opt for the most noxious formula - as they seem to do - I hope that the other EU member states refuse to comply with the UK's wishes to call a new intergovernmental conference.
JO,
ReplyDeleteIn a country, which hails 'Parliamentary sovereignty' there are subjects and representative government (to an extent). There is actually no real base for referendums.
I happen to believe in parliamentary democracy (at different levels), but with citizens who have some unalianablerights.
It is not for me to sort out the constitutional mess in the UK, but I want to make the point that if there is a referendum in Britain, it should be about the fundamentalquestion about EU membership;the Lisbon Treaty is a secondary question.
The British policies should take into account the interests of the other EU member states, and they would be wise in causing less rather than more harm to Britain's partners and their legitimate aims.